Many of us (CD, TG, & TS folks included) feel excluded from lesbian communities for example. Not so for the Gold Star:
And I will add, when I transitioned I was welcomed with open arms into the the local bi and lesbian communities. My experiences run absolutely contrary to the meme that lesbians have problems with women of history, most don't but most do have problems with men in dresses, to put it bluntly.
http://tinyurl.com/43x3kz2
That last excerpt was a comment to Ashley Love's Facebook post -- "What are your thoughts on the "T" in LGBT Pride Month in June? Please let me know for my research, thanks."
Ashley Love herself has been very vocal on the issue of men in dresses. Her thoughts are worth quoting at length:
Humans have a instinct about them, a sixth sense, they internally register what someone’s gender essence is when they meet them. I will not blame the slow advancement of transsexual women on the men who like to dress up for what ever reason (but will blame it partly on the refusal of some trans gatekeeper’s refusal to initiate internal conversations about this controversial topic in our community that many TS women want to talk about!), and then say they are transsexual, which may confuse society’s education of the entire trans community, which includes transvestites. They can express themselves however they want, and people should just let them do what ever pleases them. But I do believe in DIFFERENT, BUT EQUAL.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4xq55gq
A sixth sense, really? I don't believe humans work that way. I think humans are really really good at recognizing patterns spotting things that don't fit a given pattern; such as the gender of another human. Ashley Love is quite beautiful, young and passable; she fits the pattern for "female", there is no "uncanny valley" with her.
Now, it is well known older transitioners, on average, have a tougher time passing than younger transitioners and by virtue of that are far more likely to be labeled as "men in dresses" than those who transitioned young.
So I have to wonder who are the "gold star" transsexuals (incl. Ashley Love) talking about when they speak of "men in dresses". Are they really talking about CDs and TVs OR are they including by fiat older transitioners as well? I believe it's the latter because one other common theme in the "gold star" community; the belief that older transitioners have radically different motivations than those who transition young:
and we all began to discuss about the “older transsexuals” and how odd they seemed to be. It was the much more world-wise Marcella who explained it all, 'They are all TVs that need a bigger fix!'
http://tinyurl.com/3zwo3ek
I've observed that the "gold star" camp seems to be full of "transitioned while young" TS women and I think their thoughts about TGs, CDs, & late-transitioners can be summarized as: 1) CDs are men in dresses 2) TVs are men in dresses, and 3) late-transitioners are really just CDs or TVs that have conditioned themselves past the point of no return.
This is a clear example of prejudice within our own community regarding "not-passable" people. The "gold stars" are out there giving their own testimonies before legislatures across the land and not only does it undermine the message of trans women like Jenny Boylan, but it also reifies the concept of the "wacky" transgender in the minds of lawmakers and the public.
I'm not sure what can be done about any of this, but we really need to start paying attention to these separatists and what they are saying, lest the public starts listening to them instead of us.
Great point, Christi. As a one of your much malighned "Gold Star/ Early Transitioners", I am sensing a bit of defensive jealosy in your tone.
ReplyDeleteYes, the truth is that early transitioners had the courage and opportunity to confront and DEAL WITH their demons early and effectively in their lives and as a result are able to live happily in the mainstream without the burden of being, or being identified, as "trans".
Guess what. That is not our fault and speaking for myself, I do NOT feel guilty. Again, speaking strictly for myself, I am not including ALL "late transitioners" in the "men in dresses" rubric. I would suggest that this apparent conflation is IN FACT a product of your own LGBT Leadership in their unflagging efforts to include EVERYONE, CD's, TV's. GQ's and DQ's AS WELL AS TS's under their ubiquitous TG Umbrella.
How can you rationally believe that we are all the same? How can you call women of history or your "Gold Star" passing TS, separatists when WE are fully integrated and assimilated in the mainstream.
Perhaps what should be considered, rather than throwing stones at those who "have made it" across the "gender divide" into the "mainstream" is HOW TO BEST HELP OTHERS GET ACROSS? Unless of course like so make professed "non-ops BY CHOICE" there is no NEED nor intention or EVEN desire to get across or TRULY TRANS-ition and instead be "forever trans".
200, 2,000, 80,000 is the way I look at it.
ReplyDeleteAfter 2 years of circulating an internet petition supporting the 'true TS' separatism, about 200 signing up.
2,000 joined an anti CAMH facebook group in about 2 weeks.
80,000 post op transsexuals in the US.
It's a small vociferous group of elderly transitioners, photo op activists and IS folk who prefer their status in the trans world.
Yes, they can occasionally muddy messages and gain some support when issues blow up for their anti LGBT and 'TS'v'TG' stances, but no new legislation in the developed world pays them any heed.
Whenever I've shown rants by this group's members to my cis girl friends they find them psychopathic, and still ask about them months after as if they can't believe they continue.
But all they are is noise and soft support. Sure there are real issues, for example in LGBT coalition politics, but few go along with the 'true' transsexuals overall positions.
What exactly IS your message, Sophie? "We are all alike"? ROFLMAO
ReplyDeleteWhy not try your psuedo-wannabe sophistry over in the REAL WORLD. You know my address. :-)
The only message I've got in this regard is that I see myself as part of a community of people with serious gender issues. I don't feel that for people who choose variant gender presentation, but acknowledge that by allying with this larger group certain political/legal aims might be more easily obtained.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, I don't feel it appropriate for a group of people who see themselves as perfectly fitting the extreme case of an antique classification of transsexuality as a mental illness to set themselves up as experts/aristocracy of trans people.
No, we're not the same but the standard nonsense of labelling people as fetishists if they don't follow that path seems...an extreme case of mental illness.
Sophie. I very much support your efforts, together with a "community of people with serious gender issues" to organize and "allying with this larger group (that) certain political/legal aims might be more easily obtained".
ReplyDeleteMy only caveat to that support is that you PLEASE EXCLUDE those of us that no longer suffer from that "extreme case of an antique classification of trans sexuality as a mental illness", from that group or alliance
THE TRUTH IS that we DO NOT see ourselves as, nor wish to "set themselves up as experts/aristocracy of trans people". IN FACT we see ourselves only as happily ORDINARY members of mainstream society.
That the vast majority of that "mainstream" see fetishists as "an extreme case of mental illness" might just be a bit of an overstatement and tiresomely typical demagoguery
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIs a "Gold Star" transsexual anything like a "Gold Star" lesbian? [Just kidding, Kristy)
ReplyDeleteNice post.
Calie xxx
You said it all when you said, "...lest the public starts listening to them instead of us."
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, all the bickering going on within the trans community is proving futile. And even worse, it's proving detrimental to the cause...the cause of helping people make it through transition so they can go on living as their true selves.
When I first began transition a few years ago, I sought out and found those who were like me, supported me, and stuck by me through the worst of times. The websites and blogs I visited weren't full of nasty back and forth bullying that seems so prominent every where you go now...from Facebook to the blogosphere. It just sickens me that we have lost our focus on supporting each other through the chaos that transition creates, and then watching them blossom enough to support the next group of people seeking and needing the same support structure.
Transition seemed like such a long time ago for me. The hurt and pain is no longer there though the haunting memories are there to remind me what I lost through it all, and what I've gained since then.
There will always be trolls, haters, and the pious sitting safely and calmly behind their glowing screen spewing whatever filth they so desire. I imagine they would be far less hostile speaking such hatred in a face to face confrontation. No matter, we can't lose focus in what could be our greatest chance to affect real change in the hearts and minds of those who know little to nothing about being T.
We won't show them we're worthy of living in their circles by proving what cannibals we can be; we'll do it by living our lives away from the desk and into the sunlight for all to see. I've seen hearts and minds change, but it had to be face to face, where they could plainly see my life was undoubtedly changed...for the better.
Speaking of cannibals, Lori, what is it exactly that I have said that you find so hateful? I would ask that you provide me with specific examples and not your usual nuanced inferences and thinly veiled disparagements.
ReplyDeleteI would ask that for the sake of simplicity and clarity you limit those examples to this particular post.
For example, I could point to your blatant demagoguery in your use of this tiresomely familiar language..."There will always be trolls, haters, and the pious sitting safely and calmly behind their glowing screen spewing whatever filth they so desire".
Or this poor attempt by Sophie at demonization..." a small vociferous group of elderly transitioners, photo op activists and IS folk who prefer their status in the trans world"
Or....
Case in point.
ReplyDeleteGet away from pointing fingers and finally seek to help others instead of tearing them down. Go ahead, call me names, that's always next on your list.
My point is that we all need to give a little more consideration as to what we can bring to the table instead of what we take from it. That's all I will say about this and not lose the focus on my main point. Let's be helpful, not hateful.
Clearly, the only name that I have called you is "Lori".
ReplyDeleteAgain, I ask you, 'Where is the hate and pointing of fingers?'
From my perspective, the only name calling and finger pointing that I can percieve, is coming from that person you see when you look in a mirror.
Clearly, you do not like me or what you THINK that I am saying. Perhaps you are too quick to judge and conflate my sentiments with those of some of those that comment FREELY and uncensored on my blog.
Again, I challenge you to substantiate your wrecklessly flung accusations.
I see a terrible irony at work here. I think the separatists should be heard. If anyone doesn't want to be associated with the greater trans* community, by all means, they should be exempted from it and its politics. But that isn't going to affect what the public-at-large thinks about "early transitioners" (or whatever label-but-not-a-label they choose to apply to themselves). For that, they're going to have to come forward and explain their position, and why they shouldn't be lumped in with the rest of us. And I'll be happy to back them up on that, but they're going to have to do it...no one else's word is going to be enough.
ReplyDeleteAnd therein lies the irony. Because this precious "ordinary member of mainstream society" status they prize so highly is dependent upon silence. And silence makes poor activism. Oh, Ashley Love is one voice for their cause - she's sacrificed her stealth for the greater cause - but the vast majority of those who share her opinions do so from the relative safety of obscurity. They use the anonymity of the internet to rile some people up, but hounding a few personal blogs from behind avatars and screen names hardly amounts to much political capital.
The real problem is going to come from people like Julie Bindel and Dr. Hazeem...cisgender men and women professing expertise in trans* community affairs, using their authority to push for the erasure of all of us. These are people with resources and voices, whose positions will be popular among conservative USians. They're who I'm worried about.
Am in the middle of writing a post on wider aspects of the tyranny of narrative, and the issues here are tangential.
ReplyDeleteThe separatism is one thing - the assertion of 'true TS', though, is also a statement of how valid assertions of target genderhood are by judging whether or not they fit into certain approved narratives. It reinforces psychiatric gatekeeper classifications drawn up long before the advent of evidential neurological studies. It sets up attitudes ranging from social assimilation to surgical performance as model benchmarks of that validity, with implied problems re passability. It polices trans lives.
That, for me, is the main irony. That it's those who seek to separate who are most vociferous in seeking to impose monolithic standards of narrative on us all.
I'll just leave this here.. http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=2147
ReplyDeleteSophie.
ReplyDeleteSTOP doing the exact same thing that you accuse "those who seek to separate" of doing. Sure, it's impressive that you use big words like "monolithic" and "irony" in your posts, but the meaning of them is apparently lost on you.
It's incredibly ironic that you complain about people who, in your words, seek to impose monolithic standards on people, while at the same time, you impose a monolithic standard on those very women. Not all of us who seek to live a "normal life," for lack of a better term, buy into the "you're a woman, you're not" diatribes that we see from time to time. Some of us just want to get through this transition period and get on with our lives, quietly.
In closing, please try to avoid tyrannical narratives such as the ones above, in your post on the tyranny of narrative.
@Teagan. Absolutely no problems with anyone trying to live a normal target gender life or in locating themselves within narratives that I personally feel are problematic or in seeking to separate themselves from the 'trans community'. I don't even have a great problem in some differentiation between early and late onset forms of transsexuality.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do have a problem with is when peiople set themselves up as being 'gold standard' and thereby posit themselves as 'more real than thou' ; when they set up standards of conduct and surgical status before they're prepared to accept someones asserted gender status and expect instant respect for their own because they meet their own self-hallowed criteria. Speaking out against that doesn't constitute setting up any alternative compulsory monolithic narrative ; it's just calling a gender fascist a gender fascist.
If your own narrative fits with the characteristics of a 'gold star transsexual' fine. Asserting special gender status because of it isn't.
@ Anne
ReplyDeleteRe:...........what is it exactly that I have said that you find so hateful? I would ask that you provide me with specific examples .............
If you want specific examples, you need only to go back and read through your own blog. You will find hundreds of specific examples, easily recognized by any decent minded human being. Of course in order for you to see these examples, you will have to take off those magical goggles that you wear, which prevent you from seeing your own sins, while magnifying the perceived sins of all others.
Do I actually expect you to do that? Of couse not. That sort of introspection takes a kind of character, that is completely foreign to narcissistic personalities.
@ Anne: I think everyone knows what the specific examples were, but just to emphasize the point this is what was written by you Anne about me on December 1st, 2010:
ReplyDelete"So because YOU decided, after years spent cross dressing in the closet, while at the same time lying to your wife and fathering, (how many?), children, that now finally, after sex with "the old lady" wasn't as much fun any more, and the old "magic wand" just wasn't up to the job any more, YOU decided to, "what the heck", might as well "go all the way".
And in many ways it vacillated between worse and conciliatory after that.
@ Renee: I agree with your post. It is terrible irony that if you divide those that need to establish a united front you can use their words as fodder to tear all of us down.
It is like the bathroom issue. In recent attempt to get protections under the Canadian human rights act and criminal code specifically to protect gender identity and expression, the debate ended up over bathrooms. It was called the bathroom bill, even though bathrooms had no connection to the bill. That then was used to attempt foil the bills passage through the Senate. It died on the floor because an election was called before it could be read. It is bizarre the sh** we focus on.
Commentary by any one of us on such an issue is so eminently useable by politicians. I can see the headline: "Even transsexuals consider men using women's bathrooms inappropriate". And they really don't give a frig if we think we are different until science can establish it.
You are correct, Kathryn. "Even transsexuals consider men using women's bathrooms inappropriate." DON'T YOU?
ReplyDeleteYou see IMO what is being BLURRED here and intentionally so is that VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION between actual "MEN in dresses", IE transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens and that TINY, SILENCED, well hidden minority of men and women who MUST change their SEX, not their GENDER PRESENTATION.
All that psuedo-sophisty and psuedo-pycho/social genderbabble NOT withstanding, the FACT are clear and indisputable.
That I respond with cutting irony at some of the claims made by men claiming to be REAL WOMEN, "because they say so" is NOT the issue.
Especially when these same MEN assail the validity of those women who HAVE made that painful, bloody, expensive and ultimately succesful crossing of the gender divide.
That Gender Outlaws like Sophie, in all her silly, mostly incomprehensible sophistry, chhose to engage on this issue is just a red herring and only serves to further muddy the waters of an already obfuscated and intentionly conflated debate.
This is like the proverbial Tower of Babble! WHY is it that that you 'trans-genders' for lack of a better term are so keen to claim the medical condition of transsexuality when that term is so closely associated with the porn industry and she-males?
The thing is Anne, you seem to have very little experience of cis women and in terms of your prose and attitudes seem rather isolated in this regard.
ReplyDeleteTo post triumphantly that your guy has managed to get you laid by taking sufficient medication isn't actually something any woman of my aquaintance would think of doing.
Equally none would demonstrate the sheer insensitivity to others that's your modus operandi.
And the 'industrial' language that's your trademark - again totally male.
To be quite frank, if you do want to be taken seriously as a woman, act like one.
The saddest thing I find about all of it is the notion that changing ones penis to appear like a vagina makes one a woman. If one had ear surgery to make them pointy would it change them into an elf or Vulcan?
ReplyDelete@ Anne your words give mixed messages. When you write in one sentence, "those women who HAVE made that painful, bloody, expensive and ultimately succesful crossing of the gender divide." Then in another you say, "women who MUST change their SEX, not their GENDER PRESENTATION." You're mixing gender with sex, which I actually find understandable because gender is normally used to define one's sex.
But can one truly change one's sex? Sure one can change the outward appearance and have something man made that resembles the real deal but if we're being honest, as if, it's not really the real deal. It's a transsexual deal.
We agree on one thing and that's that transsexuals and transgenders have different wiring and mental needs. Both can use medical means to help relieve the mental stress. So in that regards both might claim a medical condition. However, transsexualism is an intense mental disorder with as yet no medical proof of it's condition other than a mind that refuses to accept it's body.
The notion that transsexuals have trouble being accepted as real women because of transgenders is a lame attempt at blaming anyone but themselves. If transsexuals really want to win the fight to be seen as legitimate women then they need to explain that claim to the women born women whose lives they are trying to appropriate.
Demeaning transgenders may make a TS feel better about themselves but it's kind of a bully mentality that says more about the insecurities of the bully than the the one being picked on.
Oh yes dearie. Let me apologize for succeeding as a woman in a man's world. Let me beg forgiveness for not meeting your standard of imagined femininity, and let me further suggest that you stop doing that which you ALL so loudly protest, which is to attack others for submitting to your "tyranical narrative".
ReplyDeleteSTOP making this all about me, or YOUR personal fetish, or need to "present as a woman".
The real issue in this little discussion is the disparagement of women, by non-women, call them what you will. Specifically the characterization made by the owner of this blog of successful, assimliated women, as "Gold Star, passing transexxuals".
WHO, pray tell, is LABELING, and calling names? Frankly I object to such characterizations, ESPECIALLY from someone who seemingly identifies and subscribes to such blogs as: " Fuck Yeah Cute Trans Chicks
Me in my first dress that I bought for myself. Just completed...", "Mickey, Gorgeous CD Bondage From That Golden Era", "Lost in Transgender: Transvestite Nurse??? GET A GRIP FOLKS!
Further...I very much support your efforts, together with a "community of people with serious gender issues" to organize and "allying with this larger group (that) certain political/legal aims might be more easily obtained".
My only caveat to that support is that you PLEASE EXCLUDE those of us that no longer suffer from that "extreme case of an antique classification of trans sexuality as a mental illness", from that group or alliance
THE TRUTH IS that we DO NOT see ourselves as, nor wish to "set themselves up as experts/aristocracy of trans people". IN FACT we see ourselves only as happily ORDINARY members of mainstream society. So how about we give it a REST with the accusations and poorly veiled attacks?
Teri, you raie some interesting points but they are based on some glaring misconceptions.
ReplyDelete"@ Anne your words give mixed messages. When you write in one sentence, "those women who HAVE made that painful, bloody, expensive and ultimately succesful crossing of the gender divide." Then in another you say, "women who MUST change their SEX, not their GENDER PRESENTATION." You're mixing gender with sex," ~Teri
NO Teri. You MIS-understand. I am NOT mixing gender with sex. I am pointing to the CLEAR DISTINCTION between "women who MUST change their SEX," and THOSE NON-WOMEN who wish only to change their gender presentation. I apologize for not making that crystal clear.
As for actually changing one's sex, given the current state of the science it seems pretty clear that the neurology of one's SEXUAL, (NOT gender), identification is established in the womb. You might find the following two articles of interest: http://ts-si.org/genetics-&-genome/29751-scientists-follow-gene-transcription-process-in-real-time...and...http://ts-si.org/biology/29748-how-cells-efficiently-deliver-their-molecules.
Further..."The notion that transsexuals have trouble being accepted as real women because of transgenders is a lame attempt at blaming anyone but themselves" ~Teri
ReplyDeleteActually you are close on this one Teri, but again, you are basing your arguments or assumptions on a FALSE CONSTRUCT. The very few, and I DO MEAN, FEW, R/D post-op TS's that I know of have absolutely NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER being accepted by women or men in the mainstream of society.
THE PROBLEM ONLY EXISTS for those in transition, and those who choose to exist in some perpetual state of "gender fluidity.
That problem is made worse and that TRANSITION much more difficult by the OUT, LOUD and PROUD ANTICS of such FALSE PROPHETS like Autumn Sandeen and her obstreperous coterie of salacious buffoons.
And to your last point: We are not trying to win any fight to, "to be seen as legitimate women". We have already won that one. In fact, it was never even a fight because we always were and simply ARE, just women.
Teri. Those of us who have "made it" are not "demeaning" ANYBODY. We are, and will continue to point to the obvious distinctions, and will resist by any appropriate means, any and all efforts to be dragged back into that angst ridden, pathos driven world of anger and self-pity where so many of your TG "sisters" exist.
And I for one will continue to call to those who MUST do what is neccessary to align their bodies with their minds and souls to pay no heed to those of you willing to settle for "gender diversity".
"STOP making this all about me..."
ReplyDeleteI never did nor did I name names - there are many people with a similar position as yours, and I was referencing a group of like-minded people, not you. Yet you took what I wrote earlier as a direct attack to YOU. Get over yourself. Fact of the matter is that I think most of what you write or comment about is quite insignificant and invalid to me JUST because you have such a need to have the last word while generally attacking those (especially "penis-womyn?") who disagree with you.
I respect that you're a post-op transsexual who wants nothing to do with TG and CD people. That's your choice. But if you really want nothing to do with them, why are you so deeply involved in so many blogs discussing TG and CD issues?
After I transitioned my priorities and focus changed significantly. To a large degree I got away from being so concerned about whether one group is co-opting another group's ideas and instead just began to live my life anew. The vast internal gender conflicts I had before I transitioned were no longer there, and many of the problems that followed that conflict also resolved themself over time.
I AM AS MUCH OF A WOMAN AS I NEED TO BE; so when someone else comes along and tells me I MUST define myself by some label - TG, TS...TS, TG,woman born male-bodied, etc, I say enough is enough.
Very few people (the ones who knew me in the past) refer to me with male pronouns, and I've chosen to live my life in a semi-stealth fashion. The world doesn't need (and largely doesn't give a care) to know what's between my legs, and those who get to know me as a close friend end up finding out because I believe there are elements of my past that are valuable and worth sharing in friendship.
I'm surprised how trans people seek to remove labels but come full circle to demand a certain label be used once they've traversed the great divide. Call me what you want, I don't care. I've got other important priorities and a hell of a life I'm living. Those who followed my life in my old blog know what I've been through and where I'm going. I've said it before, "the view from here is spectacular."
Anne, I just want to add that Lori is, arguably, one of the most respected women in the transsexual blogging community. She is respected because of the respect she has shown towards others, like you and me, over the years. You may not know of her because you're new on the scene.
ReplyDeleteLori. I am easily persuaded to agree, "that we all need to give a little more consideration as to what we can bring to the table instead of what we take from it...Let's be helpful, not hateful."
ReplyDeleteHowever when one is constantly attacked from ALL sides of this debate and pilloried for not "toeing the party line" I find it difficult to stay engaged without just a bit of "push back".
Let's take a particularly contentious "case in point".
What is it about "Penis-Womyn" that you find so incongruous". To me, a "WyMan with a Penis" is an oxymoron. It just is. WOMEN do NOT have penises, unless they happen to be AIS. To claim otherwise is pure and utter nonsense. IMHO such an individual might more accurately be described as, or "LABELED", "trans-gender" in that they are living or "presenting as" something other tan or "ACROSS FROM", their biological/anatomical SEX.
To call such people women, expecting and demanding all that goes along with being a woman is an affront to those of us that LACK that privilge to "trans", or cross back and forth at will.
I see such conflation and obfuscation tantamount to claiming the be a highly skilled eye surgeon because I wear a white coat.
@Lori. Having (hopefully), disposed of what you percieve as a personal "disagreement". let me address one of your more relavent questions..."why are you so deeply involved in so many blogs discussing TG and CD issues?"
ReplyDeleteSimply and briefly, I came to the "blogoshere" in an effort to understand, to clarify to my self, just what was going on with all this PC "Gender Babble", that I was confronted with after being somewhat baffled by events subsequent to the media debacle that I remember as the "Susan Stanton Affair".
Prior to that particular reading of an article in a Ft. Lauderdale newspaper, I had not thought about ANYTHNG even remotely related to "trans" ANYTHING in almost 40 years.
What do I bring to the table? I bring almost exactly 40 years of living as a woman in the real world. Nothing more than that except the additional experience of having actually realized a relatively drama and trauma free transition.
It really is NOT all that complicated. There is no agenda. There is no need for "social justice" or "trans-equality" if one just simply and expeditiously as possible, STEPS ACROSS.
That is what I have to offer. An alternative narrative. If that "narrative" does not "work" for you that is FINE. It MIGHT work for others that might be DIFFERENT from you.
Allow THEM to make their own judgements as to the value of what I have to offer rather than be so presumptious as to PRE-JUDGE the value of my words for them without allowing them the freedom to decide for themselves. Is that not just a bit paternalistic?
This is one of many horrible consequences that happen to trans people when anyone (cis or trans or post-trans or whoever) tries to place your value by what is between your legs. (NOT SAFE for work, kids, or the faint of heart)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhiHb913Lf4TpU4q5m
Oh baloney, Anne! I've been following your posts from the day you first appeared here on Blogger, and from day one, you entered this little corner of the internet like a terrorist, lobbing your ideological bombs at anyone who did not conform to your version of the truth. Your posts are always absolutely dripping with condescension, and whenever you are called on it, you try to turn the tables on your critics, by either feigning humility, or whining about how mercilessly they are attacking you. That's classic narcissism.
ReplyDeleteYou've been playing that game for too long now. You have overexposed yourself. Even many of those who were once taken in by your cunning, have come to realize just how insincere and tenuous any friendship with you is. After all, how can anyone maintain a friendship with someone who is fine as long as they are in agreement with you, but who hurls invective at them, when they say you stepped over the line of decency.
Want to be excluded from the transgender umbrella, and left alone to live a life of assimilation? Then go and do it, and leave the rest of us alone! The trouble I see for you with that, is that you never have assimilated into the world of cis women. If I had to guess, I'd say you have spent the majority of your time around men for the last 40 years, because you never truly did relate to cis females. It was your need to be adored by males, that drove you to transition. Why else would you work as a stripper soon after SRS, and eventually go on to manage a male dominated business like a construction company? It's no wonder you do not understand the majority of transsexuals, who simply want to be one of the girls, and couldn't care less what men think of them.
.
Right Mel. Whatever...yada, yada, yada. Yes, am being dismissive of your ignorant assumptions and accusations. OK? Done. Finito with you.
ReplyDeleteLori...I get it. The world is not a friendly place. Trust me. I KNOW THAT. All the more reason to walk quietly and carry a big stick.
I'm sorry, but the recent videotaped beating of a trans woman in a Baltimore McDonald's brings this issue even more to light, especially since so many make it a bathroom issue.
ReplyDeleteTo use a quote from Jenny Boylan that she said yesterday in her own response to the attack:
"So this woman beaten in Baltimore? Do you think the perpetrators paused to consider whether she was a "woman of transsexual history" or a drag queen, or a cross dresser, or a "pagan intersex princess" or whatever other identifier she came up with for herself? Seriously? Why do I stand with ALL trans people, regardless of history? This is why."
I can't help but agree with this wholeheartedly. Who says that a post-op transsexual woman should be the ONLY trans person to ever step inside a bathroom. I remember when I first started going out and presenting as my authentic self there were too many occurrences where others took notice I was a trans person and made rude comments towards me. The bathroom issue was one of the worst things I had to deal with...for God's sake, I just needed to pee!
As time went on and my presentation and voice was more in line with my female mind, I simply could no longer use the men's restroom. It got to the point where one day I was dressed (I like the term "cross-dressed" here) as a male on a trip to California to see family and I had to use a rest area restroom. I was nearly beat up when the men saw me as a female at first then realized I was a trans woman in their bathroom. My son and I were nearly victimized because of this very kind of panicked hatred.
Yes, I have to agree with Boylan - when does one finally get a "pass" to use a restroom of their gender presentation and why should only "true" or "classic" transsexuals get an unfettered hall pass to the ladies' room?
I have many post-op transsexual friends in my life. Many of them were unable to remove some markedly male features from the ravaging effects testosterone had on their body. Yet even though they get called names and are put down on an almost daily basis by mean spirited people, they live their lives to the best of their ability. I stand with them, and I stand with those women who are just trying to find a place to pee.
No, WE need to come together and stop all this bitching so that those who don't understand us will see that we stand, or sit...together.
We are an angry bunch, that's true. But the world is a terrible, violent place for those outside the (passable) gender binary.
Well said, Lori!
ReplyDeleteMelissa XX
Lori. I AGAIN...VERY MUCH AGREE WITH YOU that there is no justification for ANYBODY being attacked or harrassed just for being white in a predominantly black environment.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that people who are going through those very difficult months of ACTUAL TRANSITION from MALE to FEMALE should also be allowed some accomodation while actually in THAT PROCESS of TRANSFORMATION.
HOWEVER where I DO draw line in the sand is at point where MEN, such as MEL-"issa", who persists in his unrelenting attacks on my personal validity expect that same courtesy.
THIS IS NOT as Boylan puts it, about "Gender PRESENTATION". THERE IS A HUGE difference between the vast numbers of cross dressers, transvestites and wannabe "play" wy-men, and... REAL women.
ReplyDeleteUntil that conflation and coat-tailing on the backs of, and under the skirts of pre-op and post op WOMEN STOPS, those women will persist in their efforts to maintain their rights to privacy by quietly and reasonably and PERSONALLY, (as women have always done), present their concerns to their Federal, State and local officials. PINK POWER PARADES do more harm than good by offending the sensibilities of your mainstream majorities AND, I might add, MINORITIES. So, by all means DO, carry on.
My best friend (a GG) of 15+ years is a Gold Star lesbian (meaning that she has NEVER been with a man). I am definitely, by anybody's definition, a "guy in a dress". By that I mean that I am a crossdresser, I do not feel as if I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, I have no desire to be a woman, and I really enjoy being a heterosexual male. Yet my best friend and I get along perfectly like two peas in a pod. Maybe we're the exception to the rule, but I doubt it.
ReplyDeleteI personally see vast differences between transsexuals and crossdressers, and am constantly amazed that we're as friendly towards each other as we are. My transsexual friend talks about wanting to be a woman full time all the time, whereas I only desire to "look" like a girl two nights a week. Any more than that and I quickly get sick of it. My transsexual friend despises her guy side and longs to be rid of it permanently. Whereas I love being a guy as much as I enjoy dressing as a girl, and I wouldn't want to give up either. I could go on and on about our differences, but then my comment will become longer than your original post! You get my point, though.
I don't see a problem with these separatist. More correctly, I don't think of them as "separatist" so much. The term "separatist" implies that they should belong to one group, but feel a need to separate themselves for ideological reasons. I submit that crossdressers and transsexuals should never have been classified in the same group in the first place, due to deep fundamental differences.
Your blog freakin' ROCKS!!!
Hugs,
Jennifer
HALLELULLA!!! THE VOICE OF REASON AT LAST! Thank you Jennifer for the courage to speak the TRUTH!
ReplyDelete@ Jennifer Girl
ReplyDeleteThe trouble is, these separatists not only want to separate themselves from people like you who don't want to be women, they also want to separate themselves from, and deny rights to those who do, but don't conform to their personal standards. Basically, they are nothing more than gender fascists.
WRONG AGAIN,Mel...YOU are the Gender Facist by demanding and insisting that the rest of humanity accecpt your demented definition of PENIS PACKIN' WHY-MANHOOD.
ReplyDeleteBUT Please DO carry on with your NEW WORLD ORDER GENDER/SOCIAL DECONSTRUCIONIST AGENDA
Oh be productive with the comments already! Sheesh. Lame to the O.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Lori. I await your wisdom with abated breath.
ReplyDeleteAnne, I would suggest you look up the word fascist. Obviously you do not understand the definition. Fascists do not expand liberty, they restrict it. That would be you, not me.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm...So I guess the TSA are facists. As are those that restrict the liberty of murderers, rapists andchild molesters. GEE...The whole world must be facist since we are not at liberty to drive 100mph and/or while intoxicated., rob banks and run around naked
ReplyDeleteSorry Mel. Spin, lie twist and rant all you want but men will never get pregnant, women will never hve penises and YOU will never be a woman.
Now. I could be wrong, bt I seriously doubt it.
Your examples are absurd and totally irrelevant to this discussion. By comparing apples to oranges, you've shown that you lack the intellect to understand the difference.
ReplyDeleteMel. You are a hate filled, enviously jealous troll who takes perverse pleasure in irritating and baiting those who have had the courage and wherewithall to take control of their lives and live that life openly and authentically.
ReplyDeleteThat you subscribe to some goof-ball theory that real men get pregnant and real women have penises is just you displaying your delusional state of mind.
Because I refuse to believe that the world is flat, turnips are "really" cantalopes, "because you MEL, say so", is NOT "absurd and totally irrelevant to this discussion."
What IS relavant is that YOU ARE a MAN wearing dress and a wig, apparantly suffering from some cognitive disassociation related to or bordering on dementia.
What you call absurd is in fact YOUR "so called reasoning" taken to its illogical conclusions.
My, what an argument. You know, this really isn't that hard. Transsexuality is a matter of sex; transgender is a matter of gender. Sex is something you are (as in female, male, or intersex), gender is something you do (as in masculinity or femininity). The founder of transgenderism, Virginia Prince, understood these differences explicitly. So what seems to be the problem with many of you?
ReplyDeleteNot a one of us wants to deny you rights that I am aware of. We want you to leave us the fuck out of your own little world. It's simple. Your world? We don't want to be a part of it. No transsexual should be a part of it. It is alienating, your terminology is nothing that any serious transsexual should be saying or thinking (cis, passing, etc.), and our condition is not gender-based. We have nothing in common and no amount of parroting otherwise will ever change that. All you are doing is serving to make animosity between our types of person with your hostility toward our wishes for our condition to be left alone. Some of us are now working on our own community, because we've had enough.
You should have listened to Jennifer.
To Anne - You say that the transsexuals that have transitioned young, totally pass, no longer suffer from dysphoria and are integrated into mainstream society don't want to be included in the GLBT world. OK, then why are you even on this blog??? Just go and pass, never bring it up then no one will know and no one will try to include you where you don't want to be.
ReplyDeleteThis was originally posted in PE this month as "Something to think about"......thought it was relevant to the discussion...
ReplyDeleteI didn't want to hijack Cerise's interesting post on CD myths so I thought I'd add another "myth" and then an observation....I am a 60 something person who has lived with gender conflict since I've been aware, maybe age 3 or so...trust me when I say that there was not much information nor support available, plus no internet then. Not to mention a societal mind set that was far more rigid in their ways than today's relatively tolerant world.
That said, another myth commonly used a long time ago was that CDs preyed on our youth. (No more than priests, coaches, or other factions of the male population) Also, girls used to be arrested for just dressing as the "wrong" gender, which actually leads me to a hotly debated topic which I'd like to revisit, the frequent criticisms of the people who decide to transition late in life! (NOTE: This is NOT an indictment of the attitudes and words of the PE members and guests, but rather from a compilation of comments from other bloggers and sites)
Sure, for a person like myself, having today's resources would make it appear a much simpler path to reach my goals and dreams. It wasn't quite so mapped out in the "old days". Growing up in an era when it was OK to "beat the girl out of the boy" virtually eliminated 99% of any young boys and men who were beginning to think about themselves and gender. If you survived that and made it to the "outside"at last, then there were the laws to contend with. It was "open season" on anyone who ventured "out" femme in all but the hippest communities, and they were few and far between. The result of these dynamics was a generation or two of girls just like the ones who have made the successful journey today, but were absolutely stifled, stopped in their tracks unable to live their lives in peace. Most opted to just go along with what nature gave them, married, raised families, and tried to live productive and useful lives.
But as we all know, "it" doesn't go away no matter how hard you try to push it away and move on. Fortunately in this age, we have improved information, science, and the histories of so many that have "made it". Net result is that more older people finally have reached a position in their lives where it is finally possible to go forward. Compared to the time when they were first wrestling with their conflicts many years ago, their circumstances now allow them the opportunity that was denied them in the past. The late transitioners ought not be frowned at, but embraced into the open arms of the younger "already there" girls...just a thought...
Thank you Barbie,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as an older M2F TS who didn't find a way to change, I am very sympathetic toward those who cross late, I still wish there was a way. I am glad to see young people get more support when they need it now than in my day when it seemed impossible.
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